[Vilturj] Pagan prompt - when did you know?

[moonvoice]

Inspired by pagan_prompt (a nifty community)

Describe the moment when you could call yourself a witch, pagan, _______ and know that it was true. Did you do a dedication ceremony? Were you initiated into a group/coven? Was the moment filled with powerful emotion or was it soft like slipping into a warm bath? Did or do you do anything to commemorate that moment? Do you choose to wear anything that identifies your path such as a pentacle or other religious symbol?


I first was comfortable calling myself Wiccan, the day I was formally accepted into the coven, and started my training towards my 1st degree. Before that I called myself a pagan interested in Wicca (yeah, I was pretty PC even back then, lol). That ritual wasn't so much 'huge' or 'powerful,' but more just an easing into knowing something.

I mean up until that point, I had done a self-dedication ceremony. But I didn't believe that that made me Wiccan. I believe that made me formally interested in Wicca, and certainly interested in practicing Solitary Wicca practices (I still didn't think at this point, that this would make me Wiccan).

For me personally, you don't really need to do or be or believe very much to qualify as calling yourself 'pagan.' Believe in helping nature, working with nature, nature spirits, or something to do with nature? Don't want to have much to do with nature, but want to work with spirits in technological scenes? Pagan. There you have it. An umbrella term like 'pagan' doesn't require much for you to qualify.

As for being a shamanist, which is what I am now... I never really had a moment that I remember, where this really hit me. It was a very slow, invisible progress to identifying as a shamanist.

And I've never had an 'I am a shaman' moment, so far. Even though people have called me a shaman, even though those I respect have called me a milti Oraima (little shaman), it hasn't felt right to me yet.

Until then, I am a shamanist. :)

Comments

[nwallopan.livejournal.com]

when i had my poltergeist experience and both my sanity and skepticism about the relative stability of the natural world were seriously called into question... i knew I was a witch then, one way or another.

[iphin.livejournal.com]

I always loved that you are so very humble about it:) Even though you rawk...lol

[zuki-san.livejournal.com]

I'm still slowly easing into the idea of actually thinking of myself as pagan. I'm still colouring in the picture of my beliefs, and I feel slightly uncomfortable claiming a title if I'm not 'actively' doing anything associated with it. Then again, I'm now the treasurer of the campus Pagan Student Union. Whether I'm comfortable with a title or not, I'm going to be representing it. But considering my friends and associates, my interests and beliefs, and other little things that are slowly creeping into my life...yeah, I guess I can call myself pagan.

...I'm just waiting for when I get smacked upside the head by some god, spirit, or totem to make it official. ;P

[corvus-animus.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity, do you still consider yourself Wiccan? If so, how does that mesh with shamanism to you? If you don't consider yourself Wiccan, what made you make the switch? Just curiosity, and I like hearing this stuff from you :)

I found a local pagany shop btw! And some kindred spirits there as well! So excited XD

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

Oh no, I don't identify as Wiccan at all anymore. I am well and done with it, for me, things like the Threefold Law / Rede etc. are illogical. Besides, I see the moon as male / sun as female, which makes it very difficult for me to fit in with oldschool Wicca. Heh.

Oooo and awesome with the local shop!
There are none near me.

[corvus-animus.livejournal.com]

I'm not overly familiar with Wicca (I've sort of...stayed a good distance from it). Was it just a difference in fundamental or specific beliefs?

Yeah, I'm excited because they are going to feature my art next First Friday (art walk). I'm super excited! (Like I've said before, you've inspired me to go back to the tribally inky stuff I used to do and love: sage_goat...for that I'm eternally grateful.)

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

Fairly fundamental I guess, in the end. The threefold law is one of their karmic laws, the Wiccan Rede is their golden law, and they believe that people go to the Summerlands when they die, rest, and then are reincarnated. None of this ever fitted with me. I mean I'm talking about quite strict Wicca here - Alexandrian, which isn't really eclectic or fluffy.

I also had problems with the need for highly ceremonial magic, which pretty much ruled me out entirely. Alexandrian Wiccan has a love of the high ceremonial, if a ritual takes 3 hours to perform, has different parts, and lots of pages to memories...it's a really really good ritual!!! Lol.

And from there, I had problems worshipping the Moon (esbats) particularly as female, when I was always uncomfortable worshipping or making offerings to a full moon anyway. Actually looking back, Wicca was a really really bad fit for me. But my Aunt was Alexandrian Wiccan, so... I guess it was just accessible.
Eheh.

Oh congratulations for the art feature as well! :) That's so awesome. :D :D

[corvus-animus.livejournal.com]

Makes sense ^^ What was it about the Rede and Threefold that didn't fit with you (I'm familiar with those)?

Speaking of art though, when are you planning on putting out the deck you are working on? I SO want a copy :D

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

Threefold Law - It's far far too linear. Why would something multiply? And why three times? Just because it's a number sacred to some goddesses? No, that's not good enough for me. I don't accept linear karma anyway, all actions have what we perceive to be positive and negative repercussions, and all of those repercussions could theoretically generate karma, so who's to say what actually is 'good' karma and 'bad' karma, except our judgement of such?

I believe in karmic systems, but I don't bother with them in a practical sense. I prefer self-responsibility, rather than the idea of 'fearing' bad karma coming to get me if I do something wrong. And I think the Threefold Law is a fear device which actually hampers people from taking responsibility for their actions because of rationally thinking something through, rather than out of 'fearing' badness.

As for the Rede, the 'an it harm none, do what thou wilt,' I harm things just be living. It's a nice Rede, but highly restrictive and ultimately 8 words that have to be really twisted or have lots of exceptions provided in order to make any sense. An it harm none - sentient beings? Beings with nerve systems? Beings that experience disease and illness? Do I still eat vegetables? Can I justify using antibiotics to survive? What takes precedent in such a rule?

At the end of the day, there's too many questions / concerns that the Rede generates for me. I choose to live responsibly, I choose to try not to go out of my way to maliciously create harm, and I feel the Threefold Law and Rede are unable to satisfactorily inform both of those.

Oops, sorry for the ramble. Hehehee.

[corvus-animus.livejournal.com]

Ramble away! I like hearing from you ^^


I completely agree with you on these :D

Sorry to Interrupt...

[perzephone.livejournal.com]

I had to pitch my two cents in ;)

What I find amazing is that Wiccans (not Gardner at all, or Alex Sanders, either) took something from good ol' Unkle Al & trimmed off the good bits & adopted it for their own purposes. Unkle Al wasn't being so altruistic when he wrote, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". It wasn't until much later that the whole 'An it harm none' got stuck on there.

Aleister Crowley was talking about his New World Order in which 'there is no grace, there is no guilt'. In other words, whatever your will is, it is also the will of the Universe, so no matter what you do it's not 'right' or 'wrong' - it's only how you perceive of your actions or how others perceive your actions that labels them 'wrong' or 'right'.

Rede...

[mirrorred-star.livejournal.com]

The problem with the rede is that you can take about 3 different meanings from it before you start to play with it, and 2 of those are completely contradictory. I once told one of my friends that you could claim to follow the rede and just do whatever, because it does not specifically tell you not to harm anything, it just implies so.

I have the feeling I've said something to this effect before. But yeah, when you tug at the threads, it falls to peices.

[chorisschema.livejournal.com]

Huzzah, male moon people!!!

... sorry. I like this way of looking at things. I have had too many pagan friends that say the opposite, even a couple who identify Norse (yeah, that was interesting). I identify more Celtic, though... (yeah, that's even more interesting. Hush. *grin*)

-E

[cariadwen.livejournal.com]

Tis the same in Welsh and Irish mythology, many but not all local Celtic gods were moon gods and there are enough goddesses that are of the sun.

(Irish)
Oeangus [m]- moon,
Bridie [f] - sun,
Macha [f] - sun + horse.
(Welsh)
Rhiannon [f] - sun + horse.

To name just a few off the top of my head.

In Norse culture, the sun was mother, because in the cold climate they were in, the sun warmed the earth and made it fertile. The Moon was male because that was the time to hunt.

The idea of the Moon is female and the Sun is male comes from Jungian theory, which the early Wiccans adopted as their own. As is the triple goddess being Maiden Mother and Crone. In Celtic culture triple goddesses were always different aspects of the same goddess multipled, or triplets of the same age. Most of the goddesses we have now classified as maid, mother or crone were never seen that way orginally.

Wicca is good in that incorparates many different cultures, bad in the way it trys to force those same cultures into a Wiccan framework. I speak as a witch of 40 years and am now studying initiatated Wicca. I too have trouble with the Rede, the 3 fold law, and also Duelism, as I'm a true Pantheist.

[chorisschema.livejournal.com]

Ah. I knew Brighid was a sun goddess, but I wasn't as familiar with the others' associations with celestial bodies. I guess my problem is I keep hearing about Lugh, who is a sun god, from what I know. Granted, that's not nearly as much as I'd like, considering much of our experience is more in Norse. Speaking of which, can you cite any sources I can read up on about Sunna being a mother-goddess? Most of mine only talk about her being a minor deity chased by the day-wolf, and being important to fertility of the earth.

-E

[cariadwen.livejournal.com]

Sorry my only source for that assertion is from a Norseman who studied not the off shoots of Wiccan derived Norse, but actual Icelandic paganism. He also learnt to speak Saxon and gave demostrations of Viking culture at York Viking museum in the north of England. He gets very heated everytime a Wiccan Norse type describes the sun as male and the moon as female. In fact he has been known to sharpen his axe with a nasty gleam in his eye. I trust his opinion because he IS highly educated about it, not because I know much about Norse itself. Oh and I remember him saying that as the day is warmer and therefore gentler it has to be female but the night is colder/harsher and that means death is more fearsome, so it has to be male.

Sorry I can't help any further. I know a little more about the Celtic pantheon and believe me, what little know of Norse, there are much more similarities than differences.

[chorisschema.livejournal.com]

Hey, I can understand that, and yes, there seems to have been a lot of cross-cultural stuff between the two of them, at least from what I have read of both.

Thanks!

-E

[narumi.livejournal.com]

thats how they see it in Shinto as well :3 the moon male and sun female :3

[aleia-kali.livejournal.com]

This got me really thinking :)
I feel comfortable on the pagan path I don't call myself wiccan though, maybe eclectic pagan witch would better suit me. I go with what resonates with me and leave the rest..I'm also interested in Buddhism, maybe because I practice Reiki and, as far as I have been led to believe Reiki has its roots in Buddhism. The Goddess that came
to me is Kali and I'm resonating with her strongly. I've not done a dedication ceremony as yet. I'm just taking things as they come.
I wear a triquetra pendant. I've always been drawn to this symbol and also the ankh.

[lupabitch.livejournal.com]

I really ought to join that comm.

And thanks for the story of yourself :)