[Vilturj] Spirituality and the UPG
Mar. 12th, 2008 07:44 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
moonvoiceThis is just a ramble of my thoughts, nothing too coherent. Feel free to read if you like.
I've been thinking a bit lately about the value of the UPG (unverified personal gnosis). Mostly because it shocked me the first time I realised how much of the pagan community seemed to decry such experiences, and outright attack them even when they came from respected people.
I wasn't raised to believe this way. While I respect and love my heritage, and the wisdom that goes before me comes first; I was always taught to value and respect my own Gnosis with the gods and spirits, because it was this Gnosis that might - when shared - teach others how to better prepare ritual and offer respect towards these gods and spirits. And that in turn, the gods would be better pleased, and we in turn would have a better range and arsenal of knowledge to turn towards. UPG was sometimes gently challenged, but never ever disrespected. At the very least, to spit upon what someone else genuinely believes to be an encounter with a god, is a sad and invalidating act for the person who has done the spitting.
Nothing in Vilturj is verifiable in books. All I can really do is research and sometimes say 'well that was obviously appropriated from Slavic paths, that one Nordic, that one... I have no idea.' So it was a matter of trust and patience to learn what was UPG, what was the ego, and what was my own visualisation teaching me wisdom that is valid for me, but not necessarily relevant to anyone else.
I suppose in more mainstream paths, or paths where there is much written and archaeological evidence to support a view of the gods and their kingdoms... it becomes easier to see what might be the ego. I daresay that if a 13 year old talks about how Morrighan came and put a fluffy blanket around their shoulders, patted them on the head and said soothingly 'everything is going to be alright,' there is definitely grounds for this to be dismissed as a visualisation, or the ego. And of course these sorts of UPG are quite common (on pagan forums at least), so I can sort of see where a trend towards looking down on the UPG as not being as valid as books came from.
But I have a big problem here. Most are no longer raised, even as pagans, to respect their own UPG. That 13 year old had probably never been gently challenged, or even been in an environment where it wouldn't threaten her desire to connect with something greater than herself to hear 'actually, that image is coming from a different place. It is still valid, but it is probably not Morrighan.' We are in a culture that seems to raise people to either dismiss other folks' UPGs, and to intensely question and dismiss their own and treat them with inordinate skepticism. That saddens me.
There are many different types of shamanism out there, but one thing remains true in some forms, which is that the information you get directly from your gods is equally as valuable as the information you receive from your elders and ancestors. And that, should there be no ancestors or elders to teach you, the gods are more than equipped to do this in their stead. There are those who have been Called to practice regardless of heritage, and those who instinctively know shamanic techniques and Otherworldly etiquette after harrowing initiatory experiences. I fear that should they step and claim knowledge of these things, the voices of the mainstream come back with 'what books, what elders, what culture do you claim? How can you make it valid? Why should we trust you? How do we know the gods really spoke to you? They spoke to this pagan here who is book verified and an academic, and that seems more valid to us.'
And that is shameful. I find this a shameful way of treating a person's desire for growth, and in turn, an extremely shameful form of disrespecting the gods and the spirits.
There will always be hollow voices out there, that claim experiences that they've never had. It will trigger our bullshit meters, someone will snark about it, and for what? The satisfaction of trying to shatter someone else's journey?
I think negativity towards the UPG also comes from a fear of wanting to seem right and be accepted. What if you have an actual experience with a well-known god that not only is different to the books, by flies against the nature of that 'god' as you've heard it from everyone else around you? Prepare to be crushed by your pagan 'colleagues,' if that's the case. But it DOES happen. Gods do have their personalities, but they can never be 100% pigeonholed in any category. But this does happen. And these are treated with especial reluctance, because I think nowadays people are less able to reshape and change their idea of what makes up the god/s they worship.
Some of the knowledge on my website of the Vilturj gods and Otherworlds comes not from my elders, but from my own UPG. I have been taught to respect and have faith in that knowledge, because I am not afraid to gently challenge and discard as is necessary (like when I deluded myself into thinking that I was some type of Vanth-Etruscan type Angel. No. I'm not. :) ). My UPG is meaningful, and the only reason I think it doesn't get attacked more often is simply because so many people aren't familiar with the path. But I find myself thinking, should I prepare a disclaimer to let people know this information is sometimes UPG based?
No.
Ultimately it is up to people to decide for themselves whether there is wisdom in what I say and write. A disclaimer? I might as well be ashamed of my own lack of faith in what the Gods, my elders and others have trusted.
In the future, quite a bit more of the information on my website will be entirely UPG based. I will still call it Vilturj, because, hybridised or not - that is what it is. A religion must change and flow and fit itself to new circumstances, and it doesn't always need to take on a new name just to adapt to that. A 'home' now is very different to a 'home' 10,000 years ago. The fundamentals stay the same, but the physical presentation of it is different. Likewise, Vilturj now is different from Vilturj 300 / 400 years ago. But the fundamentals stay the same, even while the faith adapts to try to escape an unfair death.
I don't need to tell you my UPGs are valid, because I know they are. I would ask though, that those of you who chronically doubt your own UPGs because you've been raised in a culture of putting down personal experience; to start getting over it. Really. You hold yourselves and your spiritual growth back. It disrespects the gods who have given you the gift of their knowledge and wisdom, and worse, it may even stop you from sharing this wisdom with others who could use it and grow from it.
This is not a contemporary idea, this is an old one, informed from those religions that valued dreams and visions more than books and footnotes. A UPG is a gift, and it should be treated with respect, imho.
I've been thinking a bit lately about the value of the UPG (unverified personal gnosis). Mostly because it shocked me the first time I realised how much of the pagan community seemed to decry such experiences, and outright attack them even when they came from respected people.
I wasn't raised to believe this way. While I respect and love my heritage, and the wisdom that goes before me comes first; I was always taught to value and respect my own Gnosis with the gods and spirits, because it was this Gnosis that might - when shared - teach others how to better prepare ritual and offer respect towards these gods and spirits. And that in turn, the gods would be better pleased, and we in turn would have a better range and arsenal of knowledge to turn towards. UPG was sometimes gently challenged, but never ever disrespected. At the very least, to spit upon what someone else genuinely believes to be an encounter with a god, is a sad and invalidating act for the person who has done the spitting.
Nothing in Vilturj is verifiable in books. All I can really do is research and sometimes say 'well that was obviously appropriated from Slavic paths, that one Nordic, that one... I have no idea.' So it was a matter of trust and patience to learn what was UPG, what was the ego, and what was my own visualisation teaching me wisdom that is valid for me, but not necessarily relevant to anyone else.
I suppose in more mainstream paths, or paths where there is much written and archaeological evidence to support a view of the gods and their kingdoms... it becomes easier to see what might be the ego. I daresay that if a 13 year old talks about how Morrighan came and put a fluffy blanket around their shoulders, patted them on the head and said soothingly 'everything is going to be alright,' there is definitely grounds for this to be dismissed as a visualisation, or the ego. And of course these sorts of UPG are quite common (on pagan forums at least), so I can sort of see where a trend towards looking down on the UPG as not being as valid as books came from.
But I have a big problem here. Most are no longer raised, even as pagans, to respect their own UPG. That 13 year old had probably never been gently challenged, or even been in an environment where it wouldn't threaten her desire to connect with something greater than herself to hear 'actually, that image is coming from a different place. It is still valid, but it is probably not Morrighan.' We are in a culture that seems to raise people to either dismiss other folks' UPGs, and to intensely question and dismiss their own and treat them with inordinate skepticism. That saddens me.
There are many different types of shamanism out there, but one thing remains true in some forms, which is that the information you get directly from your gods is equally as valuable as the information you receive from your elders and ancestors. And that, should there be no ancestors or elders to teach you, the gods are more than equipped to do this in their stead. There are those who have been Called to practice regardless of heritage, and those who instinctively know shamanic techniques and Otherworldly etiquette after harrowing initiatory experiences. I fear that should they step and claim knowledge of these things, the voices of the mainstream come back with 'what books, what elders, what culture do you claim? How can you make it valid? Why should we trust you? How do we know the gods really spoke to you? They spoke to this pagan here who is book verified and an academic, and that seems more valid to us.'
And that is shameful. I find this a shameful way of treating a person's desire for growth, and in turn, an extremely shameful form of disrespecting the gods and the spirits.
There will always be hollow voices out there, that claim experiences that they've never had. It will trigger our bullshit meters, someone will snark about it, and for what? The satisfaction of trying to shatter someone else's journey?
I think negativity towards the UPG also comes from a fear of wanting to seem right and be accepted. What if you have an actual experience with a well-known god that not only is different to the books, by flies against the nature of that 'god' as you've heard it from everyone else around you? Prepare to be crushed by your pagan 'colleagues,' if that's the case. But it DOES happen. Gods do have their personalities, but they can never be 100% pigeonholed in any category. But this does happen. And these are treated with especial reluctance, because I think nowadays people are less able to reshape and change their idea of what makes up the god/s they worship.
Some of the knowledge on my website of the Vilturj gods and Otherworlds comes not from my elders, but from my own UPG. I have been taught to respect and have faith in that knowledge, because I am not afraid to gently challenge and discard as is necessary (like when I deluded myself into thinking that I was some type of Vanth-Etruscan type Angel. No. I'm not. :) ). My UPG is meaningful, and the only reason I think it doesn't get attacked more often is simply because so many people aren't familiar with the path. But I find myself thinking, should I prepare a disclaimer to let people know this information is sometimes UPG based?
No.
Ultimately it is up to people to decide for themselves whether there is wisdom in what I say and write. A disclaimer? I might as well be ashamed of my own lack of faith in what the Gods, my elders and others have trusted.
In the future, quite a bit more of the information on my website will be entirely UPG based. I will still call it Vilturj, because, hybridised or not - that is what it is. A religion must change and flow and fit itself to new circumstances, and it doesn't always need to take on a new name just to adapt to that. A 'home' now is very different to a 'home' 10,000 years ago. The fundamentals stay the same, but the physical presentation of it is different. Likewise, Vilturj now is different from Vilturj 300 / 400 years ago. But the fundamentals stay the same, even while the faith adapts to try to escape an unfair death.
I don't need to tell you my UPGs are valid, because I know they are. I would ask though, that those of you who chronically doubt your own UPGs because you've been raised in a culture of putting down personal experience; to start getting over it. Really. You hold yourselves and your spiritual growth back. It disrespects the gods who have given you the gift of their knowledge and wisdom, and worse, it may even stop you from sharing this wisdom with others who could use it and grow from it.
This is not a contemporary idea, this is an old one, informed from those religions that valued dreams and visions more than books and footnotes. A UPG is a gift, and it should be treated with respect, imho.
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no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 11:30 am (UTC)In the end I know where I'm at, that I'm intelligent and I can make sense of things at my own will, and in the end while I'd be happy to have discussions with others, as far as validity is concerned, that's something that I decide for myself, alone. As long as that reflection goes on, and severe self-delusion doesn't come into play. But then if it does... does that matter? I don't even think it does.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 11:31 am (UTC)Yeah, and there are thankfully a few people like you out there *jumps for joy*, but I'm noticing a trend, particularly on more... 'elite' pagan forums, which is to treat anything that smells like UPG with 'ZOMGSKEPTIC!' as opposed to 'oh that's interesting...'
MMMm. Fish-god cult's already been eaten eh?
Where do you find these awesome icons? :D
(no subject)
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Date: 2008-03-12 11:36 am (UTC)I personally think that personal experience (in any walk of life) far outweighs any wisdom laid down by someone else. The guidance of of others is valuable to get there, but in the end it's what you experience, and rationalise/filter afterwards that helps you grow and learn.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 11:54 pm (UTC)Me too, 100% me too. :)
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 12:28 pm (UTC)I believe in gentle challenging, and I also believe in supporting UPG when it makes sense -- particularly if others are getting the same thing independently. My personal feeling is that UPG can make for a great personal practice, but it does need to be approached cautiously when in a community where people are trying to develop a consistent practice in groups.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 04:34 pm (UTC)What's especially ironic about this perspective is that ALL of this lore was originally someone's UPG (or a shared gnosis by a small community of people). Now, I still think there's something heftier about a gnosis that has been shared by many others, that has stood the test of time, that has been verified through practice and feedback from the gods, etc. But the point stands that it has to start somewhere.
(no subject)
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Date: 2008-03-12 12:46 pm (UTC)I don't ignore my UPG's (although I've never called them that before! Heh. I learned a new term!). I'm usually very passive or private about them. I'm incredibly insecure when it comes to sharing these revelations, because I usually can't communicate it. It's like I'm looking at a monitor, and I can see the big picture, but I don't know how to arrange the pixels to clearly imitate/reproduce what I see.
My most recent attempt at practicing said communication has gone almost completely unanswered in the past month. :-/ I'm not sure what else there is to do, besides respectfully explore it on a completely isolated and individual level.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 12:53 pm (UTC)I suppose then, it depends on what motivates you to share. If it's only to hear feedback to further your own growth, then a lack of reply will not be nourishing. On the other hand, if someone else reads what you write and it provides them growth (even if they don't reply), you've given something regardless which can be a source of growth.
I think it can also depend on where the images are coming from. For example, I personally don't put much stock in dreams (remembering over 4 a night for the past well... 9 years now, will do that), and so I find it difficult to see dreams as anything other than a dream unless someone specifically says 'I think this is more than a standard dream, what do you think?'
Even then, dreams are so permeated with personal symbolism, that it can be difficult to interpret them. A blue woman for one person might be a comforting goddess figure that they associate with their Grandmother, for another, it might be a nightmarish association that connects back to their grade 4 teacher.
Communicating UPG is difficult, especially in a day and age where they can be attacked upon any attempt of even doing it. But it is practice that makes that communication come easier.
Still some people get more out of privately exploring UPG, and also aren't interested in sharing in the idea of giving others something to ponder. On one level I can relate to that, because I would never make it a regular habit to share my dreams, even most of the ones that are significant to me.
(no subject)
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Date: 2008-03-12 12:56 pm (UTC)I don't always frown upon UPGs and I feel they have an important part to play in spiritual work. I have my own, but if I express them I am careful to state they are my own- I don't expect others to take them as fact, especially when they fly in the face of seeming logic or history or whatnot. Making one's spiritual work personal and self-relevant is key to the integration of it in one's psyche, or so I feel. We must- as pagans and esotericists- make our own connections, and our own contributions via actual hands-on work. However, what I do resent is alleged "pagans" that get bent out of shape when we ask them to clarify their UPGs and/or ask them how they arrived at them... or when they expect the rest of us to take their UPGs as undisputed factl. (If they are unable or unwilling to answer even basic questions about how they came to that UPG, then they must know on a gut level that something isn't correct about it. Defensiveness and evasiveness are often indicators of deception.) It also annoys me that some of these types expect us to toss out all rationality and logic and history and shared group work/research merely because it "feels right" to them. Why must we accept their alleged wisdom and dismiss our own? Sure, there is a chance that they may be right and the possessor of some new tie to a deity or forgotten method of practice, but I've noticed after more than two decades now as an initiate that those that scream the loudest usually have the least to say- often they are all bluster and no value; all talk and no action. I am all for following ones instincts, but said instincts need to be honed and properly developed. Less well-educated folks and some newcomers to paganism & magick sometimes feel they must throw open their minds to be able to embrace magick or personal deity connections and such, but some of them are far too willing to toss out logic and tried & true methods to achieve this end. From what I've seen, this makes for very poor soil for any actual spiritual growth. Too few people nowadays know how to do any sort of scholarly work in terms of their paganism; they feel it is ought to be othodox rather than orthopraxic and that just doesn't wash with me. (By "scholarly" work, I mean basic research from decent sources, and actually DOING something- meditation, ritual, trance work, astral work, group or mentored work, cross-tradition training, historical research, documentation, etc.- not just reading silly paperbacks, adopting silly titles, and wearing dinner plate sized pentacles.)
But I guess my issue here isn't so much UPGs but those who wish to force us to accept their UPGs without question. Would have been much easier for me to have just said that, huh? ;-) Ah well, guess I needed to get that out, it has been a few days since I last ranted. LOL!
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 11:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 01:11 pm (UTC)i had found a site online that was linked to a religion around the Mothra and i got such a kick out of it that i posted a link from our LJ and a lot of people got pissy about it...
folks wrote it off as a total joke, saying that Mothra was completely fictional (just a character in Godzilla movies) and that i was making fun of pagans by suggesting that just anything could be a "G-d", i was attempting to make them all look bad....... uh.... what???
my first response was "because a person or thing appears in a culture's media/literature, does NOT mean that "it" was invented just for entertainment purposes, but might be an extension of the collective beliefs of that particular culture... what folklore/beliefs do the ancient Japanese have surrounding Moths? do you even know?" (obviously they DIDN'T know)...
and honestly, even if Mothra *was* nothing but entertainment.. what do people find entertaining? things they can identify with in some way.. and that still points to a historical/psychological meme that the audience will share in a way (in order for the appearance of that "object"/character to make sense to them, in that movie/etc.)...
so the person (i think she was western, caucasian, American etc.) who watched her Godzilla movies and fell in love with Mothra and felt compelled to connect with her in that way, might have looked the total fool to a majority of the book-smart pagan community of America (who like to stick to what their biblio-archeology and carved-idols can *prove* for them) but the Mothra-follower *was* still called...
and if she goes and invents a Church of Mothra, in what way does that make her any less valid than any of *hundreds* of other religious institutions that came into being because one of our Matriarchs/Patriarchs tripped on some happy mushrooms (manna from heaven!) and sat down and wrote out their experiences...
so. uh. i guess what i am saying is i kinda agree with you here. ;-)
and hugs... i hope you are healing well...
*love*
Jules/Dok & Co.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 03:34 pm (UTC)And I definitely agree, being a sometimes-pop culture magician. I've worked with both Artemis from Greek (and earlier) mythos, and San from Mononoke Hime, and had good experiences with both. My husband is a co-creator of a system of magic based on Storm Constantine's Wraeththu novels, and has benefited greatly from it. I say the proof is in the pudding.
(no subject)
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From:The Birth of a God
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From:Not so bad sci-fi
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Date: 2008-03-12 01:29 pm (UTC)First, there is a general recognition of a "filter" that folks have. I think it is similar to the idea of ego that you mention above. But that idea is that the gods or spirits speak through you - and not just your physical voice, but your personality as well. If you have a lot of attachment to certain messages, unwilling to hear others, are looking to have a specific kind of experience, or etc - you have a dirty filter or a clogged pipe. The voice of spirit may come through, but it is also twisted or impeded by those same things. So one of our "checks" on on spirit contact is acknowledging that such information is not infallible. We also have pratices designed to clean up our filters. UPG has really enriched my practice and helped me grow as person, so is really valuable to me.
Oh, I looked up an old post of mine that linked to an article that critiqued that way academic knowledge is used by modern Pagans.
The article is not longer up (this was years ago). But here is a quote I took from it:
"Academic knowledge must be regarded as a good servant but a bad master. To control it, to keep it in its place in our spirituality, we must send it away once in a while, along with the presuppositions and habitual skepticism that education tends to cultivate. Then we must revitalise our sense of place, and of wonder, by taking a fresh look at the world with our other tools, especially the intuitions and the senses."
It really sums up my perspective. Here is the link to my post (which included the link I had for the original article, which is now down):
http://mountain-ash78.livejournal.com/8095.html
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 07:27 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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Date: 2008-03-12 03:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 12:03 am (UTC)Thank you, and me too! So much time is spent on some forums just debating the 'nature' of the UPG, and when it can be trusted, and how, and how a newbie is less likely to have a real one, and blah blah blah. I find myself thinking 'god, get over it and share you experiences instead, not your skepticism!'
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Date: 2008-03-12 03:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 12:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 03:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 12:06 am (UTC)*nods* It can take time, especially if it is founded on insecurities based in fear of persecution (you mention bullying and snarkage), on top of a fear of not speaking a 'truth.'
My opinion is, is that if it helps you on some fundamental spiritual level to grow (i.e. become more compassionate, more humble, more self and gods-honouring), then it is a 'truth,' no matter what it looked like.
(no subject)
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Date: 2008-03-12 04:32 pm (UTC)I have wondered sometimes, at least insofar as this manifests in the Hellenic community, if some of the resistance to acknowledging UPGs stems from the fact that a lot of people don't really have those direct experiences (or at least, extremely rarely) and so they are resentful and/or suspicious of those who do. It might be harder to accept that a UPG could be just as valid as the lore when you don't really understand the whole concept to begin with, because your gods aren't constantly talking to you, showing you things, etc., and ALL you have to go on is the ancient stuff.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 12:07 am (UTC)I think you may have something here. Some of the most vociferous opponents of other people's UPG seem to rarely have them themselves, and sadly direct their bitterness or resentment against themselves and their experiences; diluting the potential for growth.
If they are in a habit of diluting their own potential for growth, perhaps they can no longer see how potent the UPG can be, as they devalue their own, and don't understand how others can place such a high value on theirs.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 04:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 12:10 am (UTC)I like your blog, I figured out from the beginning it was your UPG
*nods* Yeah. It's pretty obvious, particularly when I talk about journeying and such. If people ask me 'where can I read more of this in a book,' I'm quite happy to say 'well actually... you can't. It's up to you to decide if what I say is worth something or not.'
I don't need a disclaimer, a lot of people don't... but maybe when you have that much fear of other people's judgement, they're a necessary thing until someone learns more self-confidence in their own path / faith.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 06:50 pm (UTC)I am a Heathen, and unfortunately most of my *ahem* "co-religionists" are highly critical of UPG, despite the fact that the entirety of our primary source material was not written by Heathens and we have far less of it than the Hellenes, for example. Somewhere the blanks have to be filled in, and I'm sorry, but it's kind of hard to strictly reconstruct Norse 6th century civilization in 21st century America.
If you look at Heathenry in Scandinavia, they do not have the same allergic reaction to magick nor to mystical experiences. Somewhere as Heathenry got introduced to Americans, it was looked at as being "the indigenous religion of the white people" (lawlz) and the whole element of connecting with the Gods was completely made a tertiary priority or not at all. You will have some "mainstream Asatruar" who claim to honor the Gods, but will still laugh at someone who says Deity X spoke to them in their sleep last night, especially if there was a precognitive thing that comes true 3 months later.
I've learned by now that while not every single UPG every single person has is always valid, it may probably mean something of worth to the individual experiencing it, rather than the public at large. If it helps someone grow spiritually, if it helps them find a more meaningful spirituality rather than something resembling an SCA event, then what's the problem? The Gods didn't stop talking to people: people stopped talking to the Gods. Moreover, most people who "come out" about having UPGs are usually not faking it. Some are, and this is where you have to be somewhat wary, because there are some charlatans who have taken advantage of me in the past under the guise of "I'm experiencing something like this too and could really use your help." But many are not, and they stand something significant to lose by it *especially* if they were/are a part of a more reconstructionist-oriented religion that is all textbooks and lacking in the personal element.
Heathenry will of course not look the same in the 21st century as it did in the 6th: the Gods are intelligent enough to know society has changed. Many of Them may not be happy at what's happened to the planet and to the psyches and bodies of people. But They are at least aware of what we need from Them, how to make the Old Gods and Old Ways relevant for today.
I will treat UPGs with respect until there is a reason for me not to.
Thank you :)
no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 12:14 am (UTC)Mmm, yeah I've seen such attitudes directed towards people who use runes for divination, and then if you use runes for divination based on an Uthark instead of a Futhark, woe betide!!! I dread to think how bad it is when you actually start talking about experiences with the gods directly.
I've learned by now that while not every single UPG every single person has is always valid, it may probably mean something of worth to the individual experiencing it, rather than the public at large.
*nods* That reminds me of my own experiences in thinking that I was an angelkin. Several experiences lead me to the conclusion, and then I had one experience with D'miezak'r (moon god), who basically looked at me wryly and went 'oh really? You think so?' And did the god equivalent of 'pfft,' and I saw that I was for a variety of reasons pulling myself towards that conclusion.
But it taught me a lot, you know? Might not teach anyone else anything, but it taught me a lot about what motivates me.
I will treat UPGs with respect until there is a reason for me not to.
*hugs* Thank you. This is my attitude too. Though these days I tend to turn my back on the charlatans. Other people can call them out far better than I can, because I find it hard to be critical of someone who has so willingly deluded themself... that they probably won't hear anything I have to say anyway.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 07:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 12:15 am (UTC)Rejection of UPG tends to come most strongly from reconstructionists (i.e. Heathens, Hellenics, Kemetics, Celtic Reconstructionists etc.) who want to be as 'authentic' as possible and therefore disproportionately privilege ancient texts / murals etc. over their own experiences.
Some of the Reconstructionist faiths aren't as... aggressive as others, but some are ruthless in their privileging anthropological resources / archaeological finds over their own gnosis and the gnosis of others.
(no subject)
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Date: 2008-03-12 07:33 pm (UTC)One of the things I love about the Kemetic community is that it's gentle about UPG, encourages it, incorporates it even, and yet maintains a certain element of balance in questioning and research.
It's also one of the reasons the hard recon communities frustrate me at times; so often they're all book-and-academia with no experiential component, and that makes for a pretty lifeless faith, IMO. I think academia, healthy skepticism, and research must be balanced with UPG, and vice versa. Too little UPG and you have a lifeless, going-through-the-motions faith; too little intellectualism/research/questioning and you have delusion.
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Date: 2008-03-12 07:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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From:(no subject)
From:Just Thoughts
Date: 2008-03-12 07:41 pm (UTC)Their UPG is mainly valid to them, though, or to the group/s they may be practicing within. I may try the techniques they used to obtain their UPG, but I always recognize that my personal experience will probably be different. It also depends on how the person chooses to live after they have a UPG - do they start to walk the walk, or are they just talking so people will flock to them? Is it power-hunger or is it Power?
Re: Just Thoughts
Date: 2008-03-13 12:24 am (UTC)Noooooooo. :)
Yours have lots of value!!! You offer people wisdom and advice outside of the spiritual setting, and what you have offered me has been truly invaluable. And if there is a spirituality behind that, informing your perspective on the world and your compassion to others, then there is bucketloads of value in your UPG. Tons. Heaps.
It also depends on how the person chooses to live after they have a UPG - do they start to walk the walk, or are they just talking so people will flock to them? Is it power-hunger or is it Power?
That's really interesting, and something I'm going to go away and think about. There's a difference between sharing for the sake of sharing, and sharing with the ulterior motive of having an ego-feed and some followers come along with you.
Though I wonder how 'true' the UPGs will remain of someone invests themselves too heavily on that path.
Re: Just Thoughts
From:no subject
Date: 2008-03-12 08:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 12:27 am (UTC)Great!!! :D That is all kinds of good.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 12:38 am (UTC)But what you say...I've always seemed to just assume that what you say is real and I don't really feel like questioning your experiences is for me to do as they are your experiences. Then again, there have been people whom I have had reason to question in back again at the fluffy feel-good experiences and nothing else.
Guess it's a fine line. But I agree in that our experiences are our own truths:)
no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 12:55 am (UTC)*hugs* Or at the very least, our own interpretations of the truth. Absolute truth is... not really that reliable, because there aren't too many intangible absolute truths out there in the first place.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 01:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 03:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 03:45 am (UTC)I trust what I see and feel. I may question it but I have learned to trust it. I just don't alway follow it. ;)
no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 04:02 am (UTC)This is *very* true in Australia as well. We are raised to doubt, and be insecure... and it's so sad because it creates sicknesses like chronic disease, mental anxieties, and even places where abuse happens more easily.
So I'm going to start holding the banner for self-confidence in spiritual practices I think. Not for the 13 year olds who are talking the talk, but for the older folk who have been practicing some form of paganism for 5-10 years now, and are still card carrying 'I doubt myself' club members.
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 04:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 04:51 am (UTC)I mean, sure, then it's probably not appropriate to force those visions on others... but in the culture of self doubt we've created, perfectly good and robust visions are thrown out just because they can't be verified, or because people attack themselves before anyone else can beat them to the punch.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 05:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 05:42 am (UTC)You didn't come in that late either. *grin* There's just a whole lot of us dorks out there who are pretty much surgically attached to a keyboard and a computer screen. Eheh.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 05:59 am (UTC)Let me explain rather bluntly why I record so many observations of my UPG in my LiveJournal in friends locked entries but don't exactly believe it. Thor, Perun and Hrum have interacted with me. Further, I'm also a dark elf or transplanted land wight of some kind, "I am the voice of the rocks." Sounds pretty rediculous, right? Wouldn't any sane person doubt this quite hardily? It goes on too. I've learned that other people don't sense the invisible people or hear the voices, so I live life like anyone else does? It'd be crazy not to. Oh yeah, Indra too. :-P I'm a fucking lighting rod, I guess. I know exactly how rediculous this looks, but that's just it, I can see, not just through the eyes of my ego that wants this stuff to be true because its so fucking cool, but I can also look at it from the eyes of Joe Normal as well as Joe Pagan.
As to other people's UPG, it's really not my job to look after what goes on in other people's head spaces and spiritual journeys, so I don't demean it. I do sometimes question it, but I do it in a respectful way.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 07:05 am (UTC)*hugs*
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2008-03-13 06:04 am (UTC)Yeah, so my UPG is pretty out t here, and I wouldn't be insulted in the least if some want to tell me exactly how full of shit I am because that's how it comes off.