[Vilturj] inspired by Magicka...as usual.

[moonvoice]

In response...

As for finding your way around [in journeying], you usually go with a power animal.

I think this is one of the big differences between neoshamanism and core shamanism, vs. traditional shamanism. If I just went around with my 'power animal' (for which I think you mean totem or primary guide), it wouldn't be enough.

An animal spirit on its own doesn't often have the negotiation techniques necessary, particularly in the otherworlds. And some animals can't even move *between* worlds. For example while the jackal can go between the middle and underworlds, it cannot go to the upperworlds. Likewise, doves cannot travel down to the underworlds.

While there are differences in what animals can go where according to lore and variance in culture, the general consensus in almost all shamanic traditions worldwide is that 'just' a power animal isn't enough.

In fact, without contact with ancestors (or even attempting it) and spirit helpers, an animal on its own (i.e. one who is not a god or deity in disguise, but is essentially just an animal) is the sign of a flimsy shamanist, generally.

Certainly, having a 'power animal' is a great place to start visualising, and I think many people who think they're journeying with their power animal are actually visualising with their power animal (which is of course why they have such superior manipulative power over the visualisation environment).

But journeying with 'just' the animal will eventually get the shamanist into trouble. A responsible animal guide and totem knows that too, and they will tell you that it's not enough. I don't even travel with my totem as a 'guide', he would be virtually useless in some circumstances. That's why I have my spirit helpers, my ancestors, the gods, etc. One power animal? Not enough.

Comments

[kcanadensis.livejournal.com]

Let me know if you ever meet a raccoon dog. I would love to know about them, totem wise.
I may be an atheist nowadays, but I still believe all creatures hold powerful attributes and that there is much to learn from them.

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

*nods* I will do, for sure.

Not sure what my chances are, my affiliations with Japanese mythology are few, with the exception of Inari. And I'm fairly sure that Inari and his/her kitsune don't always get along with raccoon dogs / tanuki!

[corvus-animus.livejournal.com]

Raccoon dogs are an actual species of canine (Nyctereutes procyonoides).

[gishkishenh.livejournal.com]

I will interject here and say that I have met one personally. Very inaudible fellow, so it's had to understand them, but jolly non-the less. Makes them even happier if you have something to drink on hand (which I didn't at the time, I'm not a drinker).
Met the Tanuki on a ferry to Vancouver Island. He was going to visit a "far-family friend" (I think he meant to say distant relative). XD

And here a little clarification- "Totem" is a word in the Ojibwa (Anishnabek) language that means "Clan". The word is a wildly misused concept because of the colonists that didn't understand what it meant. A Racoon Dog [Tanuki]- Asian in mythological heritage- is not a "Totem" because it's not Native [North] American at all. Nor are many animals "totems" because the animals that were used to represent the Clans [Totems] in Native Heritage are limited to certain species, and they are just symbols to represent the responsibilities that certain individual clan carried.
Traditionally, I think you either mean a "Torek" (which is identical in concept to Nahuals/Nagual), or the new-age concept of "Spirit animal".

Again, sorry to interject, but I am a Learning Medicine Women of Second House status up here.. so I just correct this as I go along. XD

[lupabitch.livejournal.com]

Just to bring up a different perspective, this is a semantic difference due to the evolution of language, particularly the aggressively predatory English language. To most neopagans, the word and concept of "totem" has evolved into something rather different than its traditional use. While I recognize the Ojibwe origin and context of the word, it's like "shaman"--starting with late 19th and early 20th century anthropologists, and carrying on into modern time, certain words have been widely applied to similar concepts in cultures around the world because it's a lot better for communication than trying to memorize several thousand words for the same essential concept. And most neopagans understand the difference in context between traditional uses of the terms, and modern uses thereof. (As for those that don't, I'm waging a one-Lupa war on at least making people aware of the differences.)

[corvus-animus.livejournal.com]

Are you sure the person wasn't asking about actual raccoon dogs? Raccoon dogs are an actual species of canine (Nyctereutes procyonoides).

[alphaviolet.livejournal.com]

In your experience, what's the difference between journeying and visualization, and how can one tell?

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

In your experience, what's the difference between journeying and visualization, and how can one tell?

Oooo man I've been asked this question *a lot* lately. I'll give the short answer, since I'm working on an article right now:

Visualisation - is a Disneyland, it is the act of travelling to an internal universe, and it is only bound by our creativity. Gravity doesn't need to exist. We can subvert laws of physic. We can raise and demolish forests in a second if we need to. Almost all the creatures there are aspects of us or facets of our higher selves or shadow selves, and so are concerned with us, and there is very little threat of 'real harm' occurring, because it is such a Disneyland firstly that we can change it will.

Journeying - is governed by strict laws and physics that have been observed by many traditional cultures for what seems to be thousands of years. There are three worlds, and realms within those worlds. It is an external experience (I believe that I travel 'without' to journey). Many of the creatures have absolutely no interest in humans and the potential of harm occurring is bigger, because you cannot control your environment just by thinking it controlled. There are laws of etiquette and negotiation and interaction which many spirits are aware of, but humans are not. It is more difficult to do, because it is not an internal world that can be changed at will, but more interactive 'work' can be done there. I.e. one cannot retrieve someone else's soul fragment in visualisation, but they can do it through journeying. I guess to me, journeying can also be seen as a form of astral travel.

One is within, the other is without. Telling the difference is a combination of experience (people who have journeyed generally know very quickly what the difference is), and looking at how the world's differ, i.e. what you can do just by 'thinking' things differently.

[boundfate.livejournal.com]

I adore when you post about this stuff. You are the first person I have ever read or met that wolf is just constantly at my side nodding. Everything you say makes sense - it is often stuff I don't know but as soon as I read it I know it is true, if that makes sense.

THank you so much for the art and the writing you do on this topic - it makes me feel a lot less crazy.

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

*hugs*
Thank you for writing this! It's why I put it on LiveJournal. No one of course, has responded to it on Magicka, because... well for lots of reasons. Lol.

It's a pagan / Wiccan forum, shamanism is just a subset there, so there's not a great deal of interest.

[aloiis.livejournal.com]

AH! I hope I can catch you on MSN soon because I've wanted to talk with you about ancestors for a little while (that was prompted by my Asia courses 'cause I rarely gave it much though before). If you're not available though that's fine.

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

That sounds cool. Hopefully I will catch you online soon then, especially if you're back home now and have more access to the internets.

*hugs* Thinking of you.

[asphodelfields.livejournal.com]

Thank you Pia. :D

I didn't really know what to make of it (the post), but I do thank you for this entry.

[lupabitch.livejournal.com]

Here we get into the joys of semantics again.

The beings that I call totems are archetypal beings that embody all the qualities of a given species. They are independent of me (meaning they aren't the strict Jungian version of archetypes, which are wholly dependent on human consciousness). But they are "composed of" everything about their respective species--natural history, human lore, etc. I suppose in a way they are deities, if animals can be said to have deities. They're a lot more than individual animal spirits.

I also work with the skin spirits, the individual spirits of bones and skins and other bits. And I call on the various spiritual friends, family and guardians (which I suppose would include ancestors; they've never really differentiated themselves as individuals, though I know they're there) who have chosen to enter into my life. However, when I journey, it's generally the totem that goes with me.

But my cosmology and way of doing things is decidedly neopagan, and not all of my experiences have been from a shamanic paradigm, though I've done my fair share of "journeying" via various methods.

I guess what I'm wondering is if you consider what I'm doing as along the same lines as the person you're snarking. My path is decidedly animal-centric; those are the beings that have called me in particular.

[aloiis.livejournal.com]

"But they are "composed of" everything about their respective species--natural history, human lore, etc. I suppose in a way they are deities, if animals can be said to have deities."

I don't know if animals have deities but if it's the case I'm not sure they'd be related to human folklore. It makes more sense to me that animal spirits/totems/energies are understood through a human prism and specific cultural context, and not that the context composes/creates the spirit like your type of statement suggests, but that's just my take on it. I've heard what you said before and my comment is not something directed at you specifically.

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

But they are "composed of" everything about their respective species--natural history, human lore, etc. I suppose in a way they are deities, if animals can be said to have deities. They're a lot more than individual animal spirits.

Yes, I mean this too in my 'snark.' I am not referring to an individual animal spirit (say, like, travelling with Moet in the otherworlds, yikes)... I am still referring to their collective 'wisdom.' It's still not enough to keep a person safe journey after journey, and it's going to restrict their ability to learn other ways of addressing problems.

However, when I journey, it's generally the totem that goes with me.

I also don't think this is strictly true. If it was just the totem, I don't believe there would be an 'Animal Father.' And I don't believe you started to seriously journey until you experienced him firsthand, for the first time.

I believe before then you were doing extensive visualisations and internal pathworking, and perhaps even less intensive journeying - but the more serious stuff (I feel, and this is a personal interpretation of the difference in quality of your writing since and experiences) came when you went and experienced more than just a 'totem.' Or in other words, when you started journeying with more than just an animal 'deity' or czuciki.

I guess what I'm wondering is if you consider what I'm doing as along the same lines as the person you're snarking.

I think that you are not a solo agent just journeying with one animal. If you were, then Animal Father would not be with you, and I believe that he is, even when you're not consciously 'visiting him' or maintaining dialogue with him. Therefore, you are not 'just' travelling with one animal. In fact never in my readings of yours, have you ever just restricted yourself to one energy, and I think even you could see the recklessness of doing such a thing in the otherworlds.

It would be like taking an Ambassador of Switzerland to other countries, and expecting them to be just as good an ambassador elsewhere. They won't be. That's why you are working with an avian more consciously for 'air,' and why the animals are changing per elemental working. And why, in the background, Animal Father persists. You are not just going with 'one animal.'

Yes, I do think there are aspects of your path which are... non-traditional in a way that I don't agree with them. But I'm also very aware that my own path is very traditional and also quite rigid, and that this is problematic too. ;)

[greensh.livejournal.com]

I've journeyed with my main 'power animal', and it is my experience that he does not go everywhere I go. Hence, I agree that it would be helpful, if not necessary, to have more resources than one animal, ancestor, spirit helper, etc. I believe that in traditional shamanism a person builds/assembles/develops an entire host of helpers. Some come at great relative cost to the shaman. Core shamanism is less dangerous/taxing, and I believe this partially why the "one is enough" mentality exists.

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

I love your ability to take something quite complex and explain it in a simple and easy to understand way.

And I also think you're completely right, especially with this:

I believe that in traditional shamanism a person builds/assembles/develops an entire host of helpers. Some come at great relative cost to the shaman.

Yup. And also, if a shamanist isn't interested in some of the more 'serious' work in journeying (soul retrieval and extraction for example) they may simply never be called to the places where they might need extensive support.

I would theorise or hesitate to say that perhaps one 'animal' is enough for just personal work in the short-term. But I don't think it's enough for long-term journeying, or for journeying that involves working spiritually on behalf of others. Does that make any sense?

Thank you for your views. :)

[erynn999.livejournal.com]

Actually, I'm of the opinion that "core shamanism" is a lot more dangerous if it actually gets someone into a real Otherworld situation for the simple reason that core shamanism doesn't prepare people for anything dangerous. They're usually the white-light, "nothing can hurt me" types and the fact that nothing does, entirely too often indicates that nothing is genuinely happening outside of their heads.

[corvus-animus.livejournal.com]

I have a very different outlook on things, but I do enjoy discussing these things.

I don't believe per se in the different worlds, but as far as journeying through life and choosing a path that is guided by learning from animals, variety is certainly needed. The way I look at my relationship with Raven is that it is my teacher and it invites guest speakers in to give me a more in-depth lesson on what they are good at. Raven wants me to learn the value of community and family, it will bring in something like Crow, etc.

However, I try not to cast my evaluations of different species into an anthropomorphic box, but obviously some aspects of my view are anthropomorphic (as I am human, and see things in a human way). I tend to base my evaluations mostly on their biology, but I suppose that's what I'm prone too :P

I'm babbling....

I do think this is interesting though, an while I hare different beliefs, I enjoy reading what you have to say :)

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

First of all, I love babbling, so don't ever feel afraid to have a babble on my journal, even if your viewpoints are remarkably different - as long as there is not hostility, I'm fine with disagreements. I love them! :)

I don't believe per se in the different worlds, but as far as journeying through life and choosing a path that is guided by learning from animals, variety is certainly needed.

*nods* Yes, I understand this. Without diversity, how can diverse lessons be learned?

I tend to base my evaluations mostly on their biology, but I suppose that's what I'm prone too :P

I must admit, that not being a scientist, or even being very good at it, I do base quite a few of my judgements of animals not just on their biology (which I at least do give a good shot of researching), but also on the lore and mythology associated with them, and then with my own anthropomorphised interpretations of my encounters with them not just in real life, but also in the spirit world.

It might not necessarily be accurate, but I have learnt not to let this bother me.

My idea is this - that if it helps and aids my spirit, and my growth, and I do not try to project any overt ignorance onto others (which I do try not to do, lol), then it's okay. But as soon as I try and make other people see that my way is the right way (beyond say debating, and just being really rude about it)... then I need to review my beliefs.

[erynn999.livejournal.com]

There's a whole posse that I work with -- critters, land spirits, ancestors, deities. Depending on what I'm doing, some come to the fore while others sit out a particular task. The way I was taught, you need your posse (though the teacher didn't use that word for it, of course). Different spirits have different temperaments and abilities, and different deities have different areas of interest. The work together in different combinations and sometimes I don't see who I expect to, but somebody new will join me for a specific task and then head off not to be seen again for quite some time (if ever).

When I was speaking at my book release last week (this is a digression but it comes back to the point here) one person there asked if I used the ogam for "casting my circles." I explained that I don't cast circles, that I have other methods. His wife wanted to know how I managed to protect myself and I responded that my posse took care of most of that.

She said, "Oh, you're just a natural, then."

I said, "No, that means I did a hell of a lot of study and hard work, thank you."

Some people Just Don't Get It.

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

There's a whole posse that I work with -- critters, land spirits, ancestors, deities.

Yes, yes and yes. And as you say, depending on the task, needs, and how much they respect you at any given moment (I have a few who won't come if I haven't offered enough, and it's damned stupid on my behalf, since one of them is probably the most 'overall helpful'), and not having such a posse is reckless! Especially for serious soul work.

Different spirits have different temperaments and abilities, and different deities have different areas of interest.

*nods* I am finding this too. One of my spirit helpers is especially good at conversing with gods on my behalf, especially if they don't 'know' me. Another is a trickster, and can make a joke of any situation, and can diffuse tense or awkward situations. He's also good at etiquette with general spirits. Yet another is just all fire and power, good to back me up when I feel I need a bit of extra 'oomph' and I know that my flimsy humanness won't be enough. And so on and so on.

The fire and power spirit helper would be useless in a situation where tact is required. The trickster would be not so good when I need raw power.

The work together in different combinations and sometimes I don't see who I expect to, but somebody new will join me for a specific task and then head off not to be seen again for quite some time (if ever).

I explained that I don't cast circles, that I have other methods.

I also do not cast circles. I feel that with my 'ensemble' (for lack of a better word), if I call them in and I know I am good with them, I need no more protection. If I call them in and they're not very happy with me, then I'd better make some amends!

Not having an alter at the moment lets me down a bit, so I have to make most of my offerings outside. But at least I know what to do to repair relationships, and also how 'safe' I am by who in the ensemble will walk by my side.

The ensemble I have now... it took years of hard work, as you say, to assemble. It's not just a matter of 'coming naturally,' I didn't start with this ensemble, and it grows and evolves, it isn't set. It took effort, concentration, patience, and even some wooing of a couple. And it took a willingness to learn, to be dismembered (and to face it again if necessary), to be shown my most shameful sides of myself and be told 'and here's how you can help yourself, and if you don't... why are we sticking around?'

And it also takes - for me at least - an ability to see that they, for some reason, find me worthy. As I disrespect myself, so I disrespect them. In fact, after really bad episodes of self-harm, I usually spend some time repairing once more.

I am definitely not a great student sometimes. But I am also somewhat comforted by the fact that I have managed to maintain this ensemble so far, and that they haven't left me or abandoned me, that I am still learning and growing.

It took me at least 6 months to learn Thylacoleo spirit-helper's name... it may take longer to actually develop a real 'working' relationship with him.

I think some people don't realise that it is time and hard work. I suppose to me it's like any close relationship or friendship. It requires love (giving and accepting), respect, humility, dedication, honesty etc.

It doesn't just 'come.'

Sorry for the ramble. I just felt you hit the nail on the head for me. :)

[greenforest-elf.livejournal.com]

wow! Thank you for posting this Pia and also to all who replied!

*goes off to find info on Ibises who've been pecking at me recently*

[lupabitch.livejournal.com]

I second the thank you; this has been an awesome discussion. I appreciate the chance to get to talk about such things.