[Vilturj] Moon and Sun

[moonvoice]

Yes, I believe the Moon is a God. And the Sun is a Goddess.

This is what makes sense to me. Scratch back through ancient pagan culture and you'll find I'm not in a minority, just in a neopagan minorty. *grins*

Comments

[minxee.livejournal.com]

I'm not in a minority, just in a neopagan minorty. *grins*

hehehe too true. But not many neopagans know their history very well either....

[amberfishy.livejournal.com]

This makes more sense to me too. But I don't like getting stuff thrown at me. If you have some ammunition regarding this, that would be grand!!

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

Norse culture
certain Aboriginal Australian cultures
certain Native American and Inuit cultures
Japan
China
Russia
Finland
Germany
Egypt (Sekmet is older than Horus / Ra historically, and so archaeologists think she may have been an original sun goddess).
Aztec / Mayan (I think)
Sumeria
most of the European countries fringing the Baltic sea.

It's a good start. *grin*

You'll notice most of the cultures that neopagans pull from, Italy / Welsh / Celtic / Greek / Egyptian (to a degree) have a Sun God and a Moon Goddess. But look outside of that and suddenly it really isn't as common anymore.

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

Bit of a shame really. :)

[seathirty3.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure the Mayans is a yes. You could also mention the early paleolithic (Laussel), but that's not always so clear depending on who you're talk to.

[seathirty3.livejournal.com]

*talking to -_-

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

Thank you! :D :D

[mirrorred-star.livejournal.com]

I'm in the neopagan majority, probably because I generally stick to more 'normal' neopagan play-things, including western astrology. I haven't looked at many non-european panthenons aside from a tiny bit of Japanese and some Chinese.

I think I sort of have a sense of how the sun goddess/moon god thing can work, though.

Or at least, I'm not about to dismiss it as unworkable and too fantastic to get a grip on.

I'll leave that for the NFP snarks :P

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

Actually, even a great deal of European pantheons believe in Sun-god, Moon-goddess. Germany / Scandinavia / Finland / and many others.

*grin*

[sonne-windsoul.livejournal.com]

My mind works spontaneously, so to speak, when it comes to attributing genders to many things--in a sense, I subconsciously just end up thinking of [insert thing/entity/etc.] as a particular gender and it stays as such unless I either make it a point to change that view or am provided with reason to change it by the thing/entity itself. For whatever reason, my mind (before exposing myself to the neopagan ideas; of course I had heard of the sun-god concept numerous times before anyway) decided to automatically think of the sun deity I recognize as being masculine--however, when it comes to deities, I don't technically think of them really as male or female, but rather as some variance of both masculine and feminine of which they can appear to me in either of those ways, or a combination of both (in an androgynous way). I've had some experiences with God of Ungulates (for lack of a more proper name to call him at this point) that way where he sometimes seems masculine to me, or times when he seems notably androgynous.

I see nothing wrong with the concept of a Sun Goddess and Mood God, and I can understand how it makes sense and is an interesting concept. For me, it would actually make a lot more sense for me to consider Sun a goddess giving what I attribute to Sun, but I'm content thinking of it as either gender or androgynous.

Which reminds me, I could be considered somewhat odd to some people for maintaining the alias "Sonne" giving it's just the German word for sun and I'm using it in a female context--it just also seems like a more 'feminine' form of the term "sun"; though I have my strange set of reasons for using the term as an alias, including its resonation with me beyond any other words/names I've come across and used.

[hakuzo.livejournal.com]

What do you make of man walking on the moon?

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

Doesn't really bother me actually, anymore than it does that man walks on this planet, which is a god to me as well. Or forages the seas and plunders it, which is also a god. :)

[hakuzo.livejournal.com]

All good points. =)

[micalela.livejournal.com]

Agreed. The Norse god is Mani - God of the Moon. The Norse Goddess is Sunna - Goddess of the Sun. They are chased by a wolf which is why the sun and the moon rotate around the earth.

This fits more with how I feel their energies rather than the Goddess - moon, God - sun. I'm a minority in paganism, the fact that I'm a woman, a hispanic in the US. Nothing wrong with any of those things. :D

[darakat-ewr.livejournal.com]

I believe in a celtic goddess who is associated with the moon (not a moon goddess due to a technicality), and one who is a sun god, and I believe that there are gods of the sun and moon, several in fact, not sure which ones specifically but thats what polytheism is all about! or thats what I think anyway.

[sotepetsenu.livejournal.com]

"Egypt (Sekmet is older than Horus / Ra historically, and so archaeologists think she may have been an original sun goddess)."

Egyptian Pantheon is extra fun. Things are both true and untrue at the same time. The Names of the Gods are both a part of All, and individual unto themselves, etc. etc. etc.

Both Bast and Sekhmet are female dieties of the sun, as well as Ra, Ra-Aten, Aten, RaTet, etcetcetc.

I could rant, but my head hurts and I doubt I'm being clear. Screw NeoPagans! Pfeh!

[rainsingingwolf.livejournal.com]

The moon has seemed female to me for a long time. The sun didn't really have a gender to me, until I got older and decided that I thought the sun should be male then. Kinda weird. I don't have any culture to pull from as far as that goes. :) Just how I felt.

[rainsingingwolf.livejournal.com]

Although...in Spanish, we do say "La luna" the(f) moon and "El sol" the(m) sun. That may have something to do with it, since, from what I understand, I understood both fairly well as a young, young child.

[tsukikokoro.livejournal.com]

This is not a criticism, I'm just curious.

Probably because I was introduced to paganism via Wicca and Silver Ravenwolf (*shudder*), I associate the mood with the feminine and the sun with the masculine. It's not that I'm a neopagan any longer, or that I still think of the Lady and the Lord... but western culture has gotten me to associate the tides, the lunar cycles and the dark night sky with "she." When I think of the sun, I think change, forcefulness, creativity, and brightness - which I've associated with "he" ever since I started studying the I Ching.

So I'm curious as to why many pagan cultures have the opposite associations. Or, to narrow it down, why do you believe that the Moon is masculine and the Sun is feminine (what are the traits associated with gender roles?)

[sidheblessed.livejournal.com]

There are countless accounts of Moon Gods and Sun Goddeses. Moon = female is a neopagan convention only.

[aloiis.livejournal.com]

Oh, did you mean you believe moon = male and sun = female? 'Cause I was like "yeaaah... the moon and sun are deities... what's more normal for pagan folk?" XP

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

*grin*

Hey I see the rain coming down and go 'oh, it's L'yuvotn'r' (a rain god), so I guess I'm just surrounded by non-personified gods. *grin*

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

[i]Why do you believe that the Moon is masculine and the Sun is feminine (what are the traits associated with gender roles?)[/i]

Hmm.

What is the force that allows the bellies of women and animals around the world to ripen? What force, in essence, nurtures the pregnancies of women world wide? - the sun. that 'creative' and 'bright' and 'changing' force, literally birthing and creating and changing the world by bringing forth and 'birthing' new life.

What is the force that enables the bellies of hermaphroditic creatures, that do not need sperm (or indeed ova) from another in order to reproduce? - the sun

What is the force that, during Spring and Summer, when it is at its peak, allows the the trees to become pregnant with 'fruit' and the ground pregnant with flowers? - the sun.

Even with the masculine 'seeds' that cross-pollinate some species, without the sun, these plants would never bear, or at least never be very fertile.

What is the force that is both strong like a warrior, as angry and as hot as a woman's temper wild, but also as gentle and nurturing as a loving maiden, or as comforting as a mother? - the sun.

Which is the force that cannot afford to hide her face every month if the world is to survive? (As evidenced by the lack of diverse life in Antarctic and the Arctic where the sun is not common there?) - the sun.

If one can feasibly associate the act of birthing, bringing new creations to life, and 'ripening' with the idea of femininity, then one only needs to look at nature to see this birthing and creation coming to bear in nature. Summer and Spring, in neopaganism a more 'masculine' time (I guess, it's been a while, lol), is actually a time when mothers and children in the animal kingdom around the world are learning, bonding, and living in the full glow of the sun, for us - a giving, bounteous and temperamental mother.

Pt. 2

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

The moon on the other hand, is a less stable, consistent force. Like 'man', his presence is not absolutely necessary in order for life to survive. It is not his glow that causes fruits to ripen for the most part, and it is not his glow that gives vitamin D and life to a pregnant mother. However, in some ancient mythologies he is the consort of the Sun, giving her the inspiration and the will to keep shining every day.

He is more connected with the weather and the sky instead of with the actual life on the land. He does influence the tides, which in turn influences our weather and currents. The moon certainly aids fertility, but for us it is the birthing sun that brings forth life. And the only sex that can really 'bring forth life' from a pregnant belly is the female (with the exception of creatures that are hermaphroditic etc.), in turn, we associate that with the sun, which to us just makes more sense for it to be female. :)

However, in many ancient cultures, the sun and moon do not have the same sense of 'duality' as they do in neopagan culture. They are not always related to one another.

The male moon is usually connected to the weather, and sometimes fertility. He is not always the sun's consort. He is sometimes the consort of the ocean (usually characterised as female in ancient cultures, the world's biggest 'womb' basically, heh).

The sun likewise is sometimes considered to be such a fertile force that she does not need to take a consort, since she birthed the world, or the land, or the animals (depending on your creation myth) alone, without the aid of a masculine force in the process.

Much of paleopagan (ancient pagan) or traditional pagan cultures recognise that at least for them, the Moon is male and the Sun is female. They each have their different reasons. Even in Australia, where the Sun burns hottest of all on a whole, the Sun is female to the Indigenous Aborigines.

I hope this has answered your question. :) At least a little bit, for what we see when we gender our sun and moon the way we do.

[syrenichol.livejournal.com]

yeah I think it all comes down to believing in your materials... I stopped caring about history because I'd rather go on personal experience. Sure culture influences have a lot to do with all of this because I haven't had any direct contact from deity.. at least not obvious enough for me to be aware of it/remember it. Before I was influenced by any other sources hte Moon and Sun were ambigious to me, genderless. They still are to a degree, but I've gotten into communicating with others on their terms so much that moon goddess has been incorporated into my subconcious awareness. But perhaps that's just due to not being introduced to any Moon Gods.

Not to mention there are so many Moon Deities and Sun Deities... does it really matter what the majority or minority associates with this wonderment of a celestial body?

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

Personally, no, not until I front up against the discrimination I've had from the 'mainstream neopagans,' with varying comments from 'your way just doesn't make any sense!' to the stellar favourite: 'but it's OBVIOUSLY a god, duh! You just haven't connected to the true spirit of the Moon.'

So it doesn't really bother me how people gender their cosmological planets, satellites and stars. But it does bother me when I'm ridiculed / discriminated against / ostracised because of it. Especially when my belief isn't as much of a minority as neopagans tend to claim it is.

[ayellowbirds.livejournal.com]

Ainu, too.

I mentioned this to my friend-- who is a fellow anthropologist, and on his way to becoming devoted to Freyr, so he's got a good understanding of the Norse beliefs --and he wanted me to say that he agrees, and thinks that people who ridicule you and others for this "should all die".

[aloiis.livejournal.com]

When I think of rain or sun or moon, I don't think of them as deities I believe, and more as things inhabited and possessed/ownded by deities, I guess.

[moonvoice.livejournal.com]

I think that's a trend that is more common in contemporary times, to have gods that 'own' certain areas, or have things that fall under their jurisdiction.

In the really old shamanic traditions, the gods 'were' those things. The rain was a god of itself, and sacred therefore no matter whether it was destroying a crop or nourishing a garden. Likewise fire was a god of itself, which is why hearthfires were always treated so respectfully, almost like they were an elder themselves (because to us they were!).

So instead of attaching a 'person' or 'animal' to a god, we were more often just likely to go 'that cloud there is a god.' Heh. Or 'see that mountain? that is a god.'

The good thing about doing this, or believing this way, is that it means that you are raised to respect the land no matter what - because it is the land that is the pantheon. Therefore if you treat the land with disrespect, you disrespect your culture / your religion / your people. So in that sense, this is why the Aboriginal Australians care so much about their land not being mined, and why it matters to me that I look after the planet.

I am not desecrating something that belongs to a god, I am actually desecrating a god. :)

[aloiis.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your input, though I already knew that. :3 'was just stating my opinion.