moonvoice: (Default)
moonvoice ([personal profile] moonvoice) wrote2008-06-19 08:53 am

[Pagan Prompt] Should you be vegetarian and pagan?

Many characterize paganism as an umbrella term "earth-centered" religions. Following from that there is an idea that pagans should be dedicated to honoring all life and be caretakers of the earth. The next jump made by many is that pagans should therefore refrain from eating meat. What do you think? Do pagans have a responsibility to honor all life and thus be vegetarians?


Following from that there is an idea that pagans should be dedicated to honoring all life and be caretakers of the earth. The next jump made by many is that pagans should therefore refrain from eating meat. What do you think? Do pagans have a responsibility to honor all life and thus be vegetarians?

This is, to me, such a flawed premise.

The thing is, it firstly assumes that pagans can only honour nature by 'letting it live' all the time. It completely denies the importance, and sacredness of death; and it ignorantly forgets that there is a natural life/death cycle with everything we do. I actually find it quite anti-nature, and anti-pagan, to forget that there is a natural life and death cycle that we are constantly a part of.

I mean we kill and eat plants while they're still living, even vegetarians need to own their part in killing to eat. Plants aren't exempt from being alive, sacred, or even potentially sentient just because they lack a central nervous system or can't scream in pain. We know that plants don't like being damaged and eaten, because many plants have evolved sophisticated and sometimes energy-consuming techniques to prevent it from happening.

I think that all life is equal, regardless of whether I can anthropomorphise it or not. I think that plants are equal to animals, and therefore it is hypocritical of me to value the lives of animals over the lives of plants just because we don't hear plants scream or see them struggle. I also find it kind of amusing that some vegetarians feel more superior than non-vegetarians, yet they are actually consuming a living being while it is still alive. Those fresh, raw vegetables are all living beings that still have a chance of living a full life in the ground - it is our call to strip it of its life in our digestive tract; often without thinking about it or even saying thank you for the sacrifice of the plants.

You would also hope that all vegetarians didn't ever kill any insects or trap mice or basically hurt anything that was 'animal like,' if that is their primary reason for eating vegies - 'respecting nature.' You can't logically have it both ways. If you refuse to eat meat because you see the sacredness in life, then how can you justify not being heart-broken every time you step on an ant, or inhale a dust mite?

The thing is, I feel that if people are using the 'respecting life / sacredness of life' reason as a justification for vegetarianism (as opposed to health reasons, or even just not wanting to eat battery meat / factory farmed animals (who does?)) then they are simply refusing to give the same sense of equality to all animals, let alone all living things. It's convenient, but I'm not sure if it's a really respectable way of being as a pagan.

I think there are a lot of flawed assumptions amongst those who think that eating vegetables only is more respectful than ever eating meat. Assumptions based on misunderstandings of the life/death cycle and the sacredness of death, assumptions based on the value of animals over plants, assumptions even based on cuter animals over the less cute ones (like insects or dust mites or mosquitoes)... so my answer is actually No. There is no reason that a pagan should be a vegetarian because they are pagan. There are plenty of reasons to be vegetarian, but 'respecting life,' is one of the flawed reasons, imho.

Re: A rambling response....

[identity profile] minxee.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 04:02 am (UTC)(link)
And I refer to 'lazy' with regard to not 'owning' our choices - not in conjunction with obesity. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

From a neopagan perspective, I don't feel that I am honouring myself if I am giving myself anything less than a healthy, active lifestyle.

And I know that there are plenty of people who are overweight, who do have healthy active lifestyles, but I have seen an abundance of pagans (no pun intended) who do not take active ownership of their personal choices when it comes to diet and lifestyle. Again, speaking in the most general terms, most pagans paths tend to have a basis in icnreasing personal awareness and responsbility, so I find this a strange trend.

Re: A rambling response....

[identity profile] rainsingingwolf.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 04:03 am (UTC)(link)
Heh, I have an acquaintance, who I game with from time to time, who likes to lecture on how "unhealthy" vegetarians and vegans are. I get just as annoyed with him as a I do the opposers.

If I invited somebody over to my house, and they had told me beforehand that they were a vegetarian or a vegan, I would probably ask a few questions, so I could prepare a dinner that's satisfying for everybody. I like to hear others opinions on things, but I don't need to be lectured every time we meet. :P

I've met some really great fat people and some really great skinny people. I used to be one of those skinny people without effort, until my body decided to hate itself (which was probably caused by my lack of eating habits, by the way). Even then, I've only gone up 20 pounds (and if you ask most people, they think I look a lot better than I did before).

Though some studies have suggested that thin people are at risk for different things than fat people, a lot of it has more to do with eating habits (among other things), than anything else.

Re: A rambling response....

[identity profile] minxee.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 04:03 am (UTC)(link)
The first female images were big-bellied, big-hipped, big-boobed and small-headed.

Yes, they were indeed, and in today's world, in real terms, she may be told that she will have trouble conceiving. Not a very fertile picture afterall?

It's one of my biggest fears.

Re: A rambling response....

[identity profile] moonvoice.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 04:09 am (UTC)(link)
The thing is, exactly the same argument can be made for people who are too thin, underweight, anorexic etc.

Periods are more likely to disappear in a person who is underweight / anorexic or undernourished, than a person who is overweight / obese.

And many of these women didn't necessarily always represent the fertility associated with pregnancy, but fertility associated with access to food and being able to indulge on fats (which was scarce and desirable back in the day, and still today in many Indigenous cultures - where a person who has access to a high fatty diet is considered 'healthier' than a person who does not).

There are no easy answers. Vilifying the fat or obese is no more useful than vilifying the thin. The difference is that the media consciously chooses NOT to vilify or blame the thin. Anorexics get help, thin people are celebrated, and there are even thinspiration communities celebrating being underweight on eljay; but the government is considering taxing the obese, refusing health assistance etc. A lot of people - even overweight people - vilify the overweight and fat, while turning a blind eye on problems with ALL body shapes. The media tells us to, and so we do it.

Re: A rambling response....

[identity profile] minxee.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 04:24 am (UTC)(link)
The thing is, exactly the same argument can be made for people who are too thin, underweight, anorexic etc.

Look, I totally agree with you here...

I am most interested in exploring why obesity appears to be a more prevalent trend in modern pagan circles than anything else. I guess as a sample, we're reflecting societal trends in general.

These days, having access to fats and oils is not a high symbol of status or wealth. Healthier food is more expensive and it's cheaper to fill up on junk (and frequently more enjoyable let me tell you) so how does it all fit in with the modern, neo-pagan view on diet ie meat v's vegetarian? There are no easy answers.

And without wading into the addordability side of things...don't even get me started on the continuing rich v's poor pagan divide :-) That's another topic entirely.

[identity profile] paleo.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 04:36 am (UTC)(link)
Do you *really* believe that might makes right and instant gratification and cost are most important even in the face of obvious abuse?

[identity profile] paleo.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 04:41 am (UTC)(link)
I believe that vegetarianism is an honorable path for those who feel called to it, but I pretty much agree with what you wrote above. In my beliefs though, the best way to solve many problems is to start scaling back to localized agriculture and hunting and gathering. Meat eating isn't the problem, but rather the idea of viewing animals more as a product than a fellow player in the drama of life.

Carrot Juice is Murder by the Arrogant Worms

[identity profile] welshwmn3.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 04:49 am (UTC)(link)
Listen up brothers and sisters,
come hear my desperate tale.
I speak of our friends of nature,
trapped in the dirt like a jail.

Vegetables live in oppression,
served on our tables each night.
This killing of veggies is madness,
I say we take up the fight.

Salads are only for murderers,
coleslaw's a fascist regime.
Don't think that they don't have feelings,
just cause a radish can't scream.

Chorus:
I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories)
How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that's a real crime)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go)
It's time to stop all this gardening (it's dirty as hell)
Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade)

I saw a man eating celery,
so I beat him black and blue.
If he ever touches a sprout again,
I'll bite him clean in two.

I'm a political prisoner,
trapped in a windowless cage.
Cause I stopped the slaughter of turnips
by killing five men in a rage

I told the judge when he sentenced me,
This is my finest hour,
I'd kill those farmers again
just to save one more cauliflower

Chorus

How low as people do we dare to stoop,
Making young broccolis bleed in the soup?
Untie your beans, uncage your tomatoes
Let potted plants free, don't mash that potato!

I've heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream)
Watching their skins being peeled (fates in the stirfry are sealed)
Grated and steamed with no mercy (you fat gormet slob)
How do you think that feels? (leave them out in the field)
Carrot juice constitutes murder (V8's genocide)
Greenhouses prisons for slaves (yes, your composts are graves)
It's time to stop all this gardening (take up macrame)
Let's call a spade a spade (is a spade, is a spade, is a spade, is a spade.....



My copy of the song has, at the end, one of the members of the Arrogant Worms saying, "Power to the PEAS!" then they start singing "All we are saying, is give peas a chance..." :)

Re: A rambling response....

[identity profile] welshwmn3.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 05:15 am (UTC)(link)
Not only would she be told that she would have trouble concieving, but also told that her children will have birth defects and so she should abort them, and not have any children until she can lose *insert number here* amount of weight.

*sighs*

Re: A rambling response....

[identity profile] minxee.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 05:37 am (UTC)(link)
Very true as well.

Friends of mine are still seeking a successful IVF cycle, even after losing weight to get her BMI down from 48 to 40.

She was told her weight was a contributing factor and it was, but not in isolation to other fertility problems they have.

Got Bugs?

[identity profile] perzephone.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 05:40 am (UTC)(link)
I ate a lot of bugs when I was a kid... Somewhere along the line I lost my appetite for things that try to crawl back out of my mouth, but I remember ants as being quite spicy, and pillbugs are nutty-sweet.

I guess I could try cooking them first, but it might take the fun out of things.

Re: A rambling response....

[identity profile] perzephone.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 05:46 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, they were indeed, and in today's world, in real terms, she may be told that she will have trouble conceiving. Not a very fertile picture afterall?

It's one of my biggest fears.


I think in this day and age, much like controlling our consumption of resources, it's in humanity's best interest to control our populations as well.

I am childfree-by-choice and will remain so, thanks to better reproduction choices via modern chemistry.

Re: Carrot Juice is Murder by the Arrogant Worms

[identity profile] perzephone.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 05:48 am (UTC)(link)
RoFl. My husband never washes the truck & in a moment of childishness, I scrawled 'Visualize Whirled Peas' in the grime, complete with a peace sign.

[identity profile] freyaw.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 05:58 am (UTC)(link)
Do pagans have a responsibility to honor all life and thus be vegetarians?

The honour is in the eating of well-prepared, tasty food, that was honoured in the growing and the harvesting as well as in the kitchen.

That said, compost bins are Sacred.

Re: A rambling response....

[identity profile] minxee.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 05:58 am (UTC)(link)
And it's awesome to be able to make these choices about our own fertility.

Do you cop alot of flak from friends/parents for your choice?

I think 'choice' is the most important thing for me...I'd hate to think that my lifestyle or nature would be able to take away my choices about my own fertility, but if that were to happen, I'd live with it. I wouldn't pursue IVF.

Re: A rambling response....

[identity profile] minxee.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 06:10 am (UTC)(link)
The other thing I think people forget is that thin people get problems too - they can get diabetes, heart failure, etc. etc. etc. The difference is, our society says that being a size 0 is fine, but being a size 18 is not

There are health problems at either end of the scale - yes indeed.

I find both ends of the spectrum quite concerning....they both inhibit functionality of the human body. Whether that's a size 0 or a size 28+.

An '18' is not large at all, relative to height/age.

[identity profile] medusasowl.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 08:03 am (UTC)(link)
I agree with you too. Life eating life is a part of nature, and that cycle is to be respected too. Like you said, death is also sacred. And that is SO often overlooked.

I stopped eating beef as a symbolic gesture of ahimsa and gratitude for the generosity of mother earth and plant/animal life for giving of themselves so that we can live. I acknowledge it as a symbolic sacrifice and a bit of a health thing as a bonus, but can't see myself ever going full out Vegan in the hopes of not harming anything with a face.

A face isn't what makes a life valuable, to begin with, and all life is sacred. Absolute ahimsa is not even physically possible. We kill things we don't even see by breathing! There's a lot of folks out there who'd make me out to be a bad Hindu for continuing to eat poultry and fish and pork (although I would like to cut down on pork for health reasons). Respect is the important thing, and it just makes more sense in many ways to work on that instead.

Forgive my harshness

[identity profile] tsukikokoro.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 08:40 am (UTC)(link)
I will go off for such a long tangent about people promoting anorexic body images. It is not funny, because I annoy the hell out of people. But I'm just as harsh on obesity.

I suppose I take a very controversial viewpoint - obesity is unacceptable. Starved is unacceptable. Both have some fairly intrusive and unpleasant health risks, and just because anorexics (and particularly bulimics) are very likely to suffer similar problems as obese people doesn't make obesity a healthy lifestyle choice. At least with most of the people I've talked to, when you point out a skinny person that's an idol and have them confront/contemplate the idea of anorexia as a lifestyle choice, skinny is not so appealing anymore. I wish it got a lot more press, but I don't think it's as widespread outside of the modeling industry and teenage support groups.

The real key is activity, and most people tend to think of this in the form of exercise. What you eat will not matter near as much as how active a lifestyle you life. And that doesn't have to be pouring money into gym memberships. I think one of today's biggest problems regarding an active lifestyle is that a lot of work available and a lot of work spent trying to make a difference in some way is spent in front of a computer. Spending time to make a life on a computer is very useful... but it robs us of our time to move about, which makes exercise and the like a chore. :(

That being said, I'm technically obese according to my BMI. And I'm still not eating my best. I don't blame myself or others around me, and I don't think obese people need to blame themselves either. Blame has no place in health... all we need to do is recognize where we are and what we can do to live healthier. That is, if we want to life a healthier life and listen to our bodies needs... I don't really think the body functions as well when it's overweight, since the system would be somewhat out of balance, right? (Mine doesn't at least... I'm so freaking inactive.) And taking care of the body means that it wouldn't become an obstacle in empathizing with the spiritual... but I could be talking out of my ass.

Our science (always ruining the party) has given us relatively clear insight on our health, and I'm not sure it's a wise decision to stay obese because ancient cultures with no knowledge of organic chemistry and metabolism thought obesity was beautiful. I don't see how it's useful, except as an excuse.

[identity profile] tsukikokoro.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 08:41 am (UTC)(link)
> Meat eating isn't the problem, but rather the idea of viewing animals more as a product than a fellow player in the drama of life.

I completely agree, and your wording is absolutely wonderful

Re: Forgive my harshness

[identity profile] moonvoice.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 08:50 am (UTC)(link)
I suppose I take a very controversial viewpoint - obesity is unacceptable.

I don't know if I can forgive that kind of harshness, honestly.

To just blatantly rule a subset of humanity as being 'unacceptable,' is as unacceptable as saying that 'homosexuality' is unacceptable, I think.

It is that kind of bigotry which leads to the sort of marginalisations that we've seen in other subcultures (like, for example, the vilification of those who practice BDSM and kink), that we're now starting to see directed against the obese.

*shrugs* Just my take on it.

Re: Forgive my harshness

[identity profile] tsukikokoro.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 09:14 am (UTC)(link)
I didn't say that obese people are unacceptable. I said that I feel obesity is unacceptable - meaning that I don't think it is appropriate for anyone to promote obesity as a healthy lifestyle and/or something that can never/should never be changed. Just as I have a war going on with current fashion trends, because they subliminally promote anorexia and bulimia as a lifestyle choice/something others should do.

I mean, it really is all someone's choice, and it's fine if they make that decision. I just hate the spreading of dangerously false information about eating disorders and health. Kind of like how I hate evangelists who say you'll go to hell if you don't accept Jesus as Lord and Savior (they have no proof!).

Besides, homosexuality is not a risk to your health. Saying homosexuality is a healthy thing is not endangering anyone's health or well-being.

You're also using big words that a poor University failure doesn't understand. But I want to clarify that I'm in no way saying that the obese should be ostracized in any way for being overweight, or choosing to be overweight. And I think people who are mean or disrespectful or discriminatory to the obese are disgusting, just as I think anyone who's horrible to another living being is disgusting.

My irritation is only directed at people who promote obesity as a healthy lifestyle choice. It's a lifestyle choice, and there are certainly other unhealthier lifestyle choices (smoking for one *whistles*), but it's still not healthy. And if you honor and respect all life, why not respect your own body? I actually think human bodies benefit from meat, and depriving yourself is a sign of disrespect, especially if you haven't arranged for an equally nutritious vegetarian diet. But then, I agree with you in your post.
Edited 2008-06-19 09:15 (UTC)

Re: Forgive my harshness

[identity profile] moonvoice.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 09:27 am (UTC)(link)
I didn't say that obese people are unacceptable. I said that I feel obesity is unacceptable

Again, how is that any different than going 'I didn't say homosexuals were unacceptable, just homosexual behaviour.' It sounds more PC, but at the end of the day, it's still pretty brutal.

Besides, homosexuality is not a risk to your health.

Actually, statistically, it does slightly increase the chance of contracting HIV in Western culture. Also, those who are homosexual are more likely to (due to societal pressures) experience mental illness and be depressed / commit suicide.

While societal pressures are responsible for this, it still means that if you are homosexual, you are at a greater risk for mental illness, suicide, depression, and poor social networks at the very least.

But I want to clarify that I'm in no way saying that the obese should be ostracized in any way for being overweight, or choosing to be overweight.

When you call something 'unacceptable,' you are ostracising the behaviour, and by default, the person. When someone calls 'homosexual behaviour' unacceptable, the only way a homosexual person can really be acceptable, is if they don't voluntarily engage in that behaviour (an attitude that some Christian churches are fond of cultivating). And to be honest, I feel ostracised by those sorts of statements. I find your 'obesity is unacceptable' perhaps among the most hurtful statements I've heard about obesity for a long time. And I cop a lot of shit for the way I look.

Perhaps it's because when people openly insult me for the way I look, I know they are intentionally being mean. When someone says something having no idea just how damaging their wording can be, it is a symptom of a greater problem.

It is now okay to call obesity 'unacceptable,' well it was once okay to call a lot of other 'problematic behaviours' unacceptable too. Doesn't make it right or okay. Just means that you can do it and be completely unaware of how you're hurting others. Well, I'm not sure if it will change anything your end, but it would be remiss of me not to at least acknowledge that I - as an obese person - was hurt.

My irritation is only directed at people who promote obesity as a healthy lifestyle choice.

I think it's nice of you to point this out now, but your original statement wasn't 'obesity as a healthy lifestyle choice is unacceptable,' just 'obesity is unacceptable.' It might seem like semantics to you, but it's a big difference to an obese person like myself.

[identity profile] amberfishy.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 09:43 am (UTC)(link)
Reading many of these responses made me want to pull my hair out, but I agree with yours the most I think.

And I'm pretty sure that many vegetarians that have some kind of spiritual justification for their dietary choice do give thanks to the sacredness/sacrifice of plants when they eat them. I know I do.

Our particular society is crazily meat-oriented in a distorted way- it's only since well after industrialised agrilculture that there has developed an expectation that meat should be eaten every day.

Comments like "I'm sorry, I can't survive on iceberg lettuce/ celery" just make me laugh and cry at the same time.

Re: Forgive my harshness

[identity profile] tsukikokoro.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 09:48 am (UTC)(link)
> It might seem like semantics to you, but it's a big difference to an obese person like myself.
No, it's not semantics to me. It's poor, inconsiderate, and unintentionally hurtful wording on my part. And I understand the huge difference those two phrases have. I'm really sorry.

> Actually, statistically, it does slightly increase the chance of contracting HIV in Western culture.
I'm sure this is true, but do you think it's out of context?

It also seems like a healthier homosexual culture has developed over the past decade. Before, I wouldn't hesitate to agree about all of the social pressures... I mean, to be homosexual in the 80's pretty much meant that you had to take part in the hedonistic, anonymous, and "deviant" behavior of the subculture, didn't it? But now, in American, you have homosexual Republicans who can lead almost as "normal" a life as heterosexuals. My logic might be a stretch though... but I am hoping that society is coming to accept homosexuality and so those social pressures will minimize greatly. :) One can hope.

When you call something 'unacceptable,' you are ostracising the behaviour, and by default, the person.
You're right, and this is where I was in the wrong. I honestly don't condemn the behavior, and I don't condemn you AT ALL. (You know I think you're beautiful.)

When someone says something having no idea just how damaging their wording can be, it is a symptom of a greater problem.
I'm an idiot with an inability to communicate properly? I am aware of this, and I have accidentally done this to other people. I expect them to automatically understand what I'm trying to say... and that's particularly unfair online. Again, I'm really sorry.

It is now okay to call obesity 'unacceptable,' well it was once okay to call a lot of other 'problematic behaviours' unacceptable too. Doesn't make it right or okay.
That's also true. I'm not sure if I come across as though I'm a know-it-all, but I assure you that I'm always open to being corrected or called out.

Re: Forgive my harshness

[identity profile] moonvoice.livejournal.com 2008-06-19 09:54 am (UTC)(link)
Loook, I'm sorry, I flew off the handle a bit too. :/ It's been a stressful day and one line had me reacting pretty badly.

I do think that morbid obesity isn't a healthy lifestyle choice, anymore than being chronically underweight is.

I just... have a problem with the constant increase of the degradation, and acceptance of degradation of obese people. I see it, experience it, live it, and perversely it makes me want to lose weight even less than ever.

I have been persecuted for being bisexual, for being Wiccan, for being into BDSM, even for having PTSD and over the past year I have been increasingly persecuted for looking the way I look.

Funnily though it's not the doctors doing the persecuting, but people who act like doctors when they talk about all the health risks. My own doctor is fine with my weight, even told me I didn't have to lose weight before my surgery because it wouldn't have made that much of a difference. The surgeon, nurses and everyone else at pre-op didn't tell me to lose weight, even though I knew - and they knew - that I was officially 'obese' (I'm in the lower end, but I still am).

But my family? My friends? Complete strangers? *shrugs* It's only a matter of time before people think they're doing the right thing persecuting, vilifying or secretly disliking obesity and obese people; just like people thought they were doing the right thing persecuting and vilifying homosexuality.

And to be honest, I do think it's comparable. Persecution is persecution. There's a few other people on my Flist in a similar boat to me, and some of us are just tired of fielding more persecution for our choice to carry extra weight - than most of the people on my Flist would ever get for consciously choosing to practice BDSM / be homo/bi/pansexual / poly etc. etc. etc.

It just makes me incredibly sad, at the end of the day.

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